tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post5869288602952541555..comments2023-10-01T15:19:46.052+01:00Comments on Nagora's Corner: The Chainmail BurqaNagorahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-48493105467047728512018-10-27T08:23:58.688+01:002018-10-27T08:23:58.688+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.volgakalki99 mayorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16921191035486520394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-77340739304161716232018-10-24T09:12:20.576+01:002018-10-24T09:12:20.576+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.volgakalki99 mayorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16921191035486520394noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-6215676464146528062012-11-11T18:04:41.920+00:002012-11-11T18:04:41.920+00:00Because the notion of an elvish bard conjures up a...Because the notion of an elvish bard conjures up a lithe, but healthy-looking (rather than bulky and roided-up) body and a sensitive but confident personality.<br />I can't speak for straight girls, but my understanding is that's the type a lot of them idealize, given the popularity of fellows like Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, and George Clooney.Rachel Ghoulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04765944479141792643noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-62083934791689302872012-07-22T15:10:22.227+01:002012-07-22T15:10:22.227+01:00Looking at the sort of female 'adventurer'...Looking at the sort of female 'adventurer'-type characters that have lots of female fans, it seems that very few women identify with characters that look like that.<br /><br />Even Xena was significantly more dressed, which I find remarkable given that she became a sex symbol for lesbians.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-91137368184965083032012-07-22T15:07:10.977+01:002012-07-22T15:07:10.977+01:00The example pictures you gave don't seem to be...The example pictures you gave don't seem to be from OSR products though.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-12516213686285081002012-07-21T18:41:26.325+01:002012-07-21T18:41:26.325+01:00It's the specificity of it. Why elves? Why bar...It's the specificity of it. Why elves? Why bards? The general gist of male torsoness is fair enough.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-5606841550892254082012-07-21T17:22:07.327+01:002012-07-21T17:22:07.327+01:00"why elvish bards are comparable to RS is a b..."why elvish bards are comparable to RS is a bit obscure to me anyway"<br /><br />then how do you know that your argument isn't a straw argument?anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-39728208551170826682012-07-21T09:43:38.251+01:002012-07-21T09:43:38.251+01:00Well, I dispute most of that. I don't think an...Well, I dispute most of that. I don't think any male gamers would care about shirtless elvish bards other than on the grounds that they were elvish bards (why elvish bards are comparable to RS is a bit obscure to me anyway); I have met many women who thought RS was a good role-model and an interesting character (which I mentioned in the post); and there are many many men who would like to - and make efforts to - look like Conan.<br /><br />The "pose" issue is a stronger case, but I think it is one that points up a parallel problem with assuming the audience is a mostly male one when it no longer is. This requires adjustment both by artists and by critics. I'm not saying there's no such thing as exploitative depictions of women in fantasy art, I'm saying that condemnation of particular pieces simply because they show female skin are not nuanced enough. <br /><br />The "300" piece I put in the post may be a pretty weak bit of art from a PoV of technique but saying that it's "shit" *because* the women are scantily dressed is, in fact, a sexist statement given that we all know that the men are wearing even less. What the criticism actually boils down to is a thinly disguised version of "those women should be at home; this is men's work".<br /><br />That may have been true in the historical setting that the art references but that attitude is not, IMO, valid in a fantasy setting and is simply patronising female gamers who might *want* to play a female warrior on the borders of their country fighting off the foreign invaders in a manner similar to their male counterparts. <br /><br />Telling such players that they can only do that if they are "reasonable" and cover their characters up is not a progressive attitude and, in fact, reminds me a bit of the ecclesiastical court condemning Joan of Arc to death for not wearing "reasonable" attire, i.e., the sort men thought she should be wearing.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-7533868940026055692012-07-21T09:17:14.403+01:002012-07-21T09:17:14.403+01:00OK, well the blog is mostly aimed at OSR D&D. ...OK, well the blog is mostly aimed at OSR D&D. In addition, the characters I'm thinking about in this post are mostly S&S-type characters.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-3369444642234239532012-07-20T18:30:21.314+01:002012-07-20T18:30:21.314+01:00Personally I think it's a mistake to talk abou...Personally I think it's a mistake to talk about sword and sorcery as if it was relevant to either non-OSR D&D, or to most fantasy fans.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-82868219839006793722012-07-20T18:25:11.128+01:002012-07-20T18:25:11.128+01:00I don't know what other people are saying, but...I don't know what other people are saying, but I personally am saying that the analogy between semi-naked Conan and semi-naked Red Sonja is false, because<br /><br />i) Conan's not posing in the same way that Sonja often is<br /><br />ii) Conan's not a male ideal to straight females, whereas Red Sonja is a female ideal to straight men.<br /><br />iii) Vastly more men want to be Conan than women want to be Red Sonja.<br /><br />AND<br /><br />If there was a true equivalent of Red Sonja in gaming art (something like doey-eyed elvish bards with their shirts off for no good reason) I'm pretty confident that male gamers would complain.<br /><br />THEREFORE<br /><br />The argument that Red Sonja is justified because Conan's just as naked and unrealistic is invalid.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-17643009856997627962012-07-20T18:02:48.727+01:002012-07-20T18:02:48.727+01:00My only comment about sex symbols is that I find i...My only comment about sex symbols is that I find it as hard to recognize what women I know think of as attractive as they seem to find it to recognize what I think is attractive, so I can't easily say whether your claim is correct.<br /><br />The question in my mind with this post is what is aspirational and what is exploitative. There's plenty of men who would be happy to be that version of Conan and I think plenty of women who would be happy to be that version of Sonya too.<br /><br />Now that we have so many female players the line between male fantasy and string female role-model is not as clear as it used to be. Sonya is an interesting case because her *character* is clearly not a male fantasy - she doesn't even bother to dominate men, so there's not even that aspect. She treats men as equals and expects the same in return.<br /><br />So, are we saying a strong female character isn't allowed to show as much skin as strong male characters for fear of inflaming male passions? Isn't that exactly the argument for forcing women to cover up with ridiculous veils and head to ground sheets?Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-49995867428780987972012-07-20T17:52:17.293+01:002012-07-20T17:52:17.293+01:00I was mainly talking about Swords and Sorcery, yes...I was mainly talking about Swords and Sorcery, yes.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-86443125059481954462012-07-20T15:35:09.500+01:002012-07-20T15:35:09.500+01:00PS Even ignoring the poses, Frank Frazetta's C...PS Even ignoring the poses, Frank Frazetta's Conan doesn't look like a male sex symbol, wheras Red Sonja does look like a female sex symbol.<br /><br />Megan Fox could play Red Sonja, but Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp couldn't play Conan.<br /><br />Perhaps a more fair comparison would be if gaming art was suddenly full of elvish bards with their tops off for no good reason. I suspect that would draw protests from male gamers.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-3520811346567715422012-07-20T15:18:32.217+01:002012-07-20T15:18:32.217+01:00Actually I just realised an interesting fact about...Actually I just realised an interesting fact about that list: they're all teenagers.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-36659396921210549772012-07-20T15:15:05.484+01:002012-07-20T15:15:05.484+01:00PS and the main character from The Hunger Games.PS and the main character from <i>The Hunger Games</i>.anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-61396357380058166352012-07-20T15:09:09.250+01:002012-07-20T15:09:09.250+01:00"Throughout this period, the best known femal..."Throughout this period, the best known females in the genre were BĂȘlit and Red Sonja, and possibly still are today"<br /><br />I would have thought that Hermione Granger, Buffy and Bella Swan would all be better known.<br /><br />Unless by "the genre" you meant sword and sorcery in particular. But sword and sorcery nowdays seems to be mainly known by older people, and to have an element of nostalgia to it (whether for the pulps or Marvel comics).anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05546197561922726279noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-33736430943334975752012-07-12T06:58:47.832+01:002012-07-12T06:58:47.832+01:00Could well be; though "wish fulfilment" ...Could well be; though "wish fulfilment" was part of our early nineties games, it is just that they were sideshows, the game taken in a different diversionary direction.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-7566491855282768212012-07-04T16:57:00.491+01:002012-07-04T16:57:00.491+01:00"I don't think we're really disagreei..."I don't think we're really disagreeing on anything substantial here, just a slight difference in where the lines are drawn."<br /><br />I agree. That we're not really disagreeing.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-22177162389203606472012-07-04T16:14:58.102+01:002012-07-04T16:14:58.102+01:00Well, I think there's plenty of room for impro...Well, I think there's plenty of room for improvement. But I don't want "improvement" to become "Covered up=good/ Skin showing=bad" I think that cements certain Victorian values and the classification of heavy armour as "reasonable" is just a subtle way of doing it.<br /><br />I do feel that perhaps I've touched a particular nerve with that last pic, and that a frontal view may have drawn questions about showing cleavage from someone else instead.<br /><br />I agree with what you are saying about the trend (quite old now) towards warrior figures being more like bodybuilders than a real fighter. The tribal warriors we saw in school were liked chiselled granite but slim rather than bulky.<br /><br />But even reading Conan in the original, for example, it's hard to come away with anything other than a feeling of exaggerated masculinity when he's fighting Thak, for example.<br /><br />The sort of fantasy we're talking about here is all about exaggerating the ability of the lone person. D&D doesn't spend a lot of time on the question of how corporations will seek to crush the adventurers' efforts to change the course of history, for example. <br /><br />I can't honestly say that men's "power trip fantasy figures" are not sexualised, when viewed by women. I'm saying that I don't care so long as there is something more going on and I felt that the picture of Sonja up there did have something else going on and that the pose spoke to me and my wife of cutting down the last opponent as they attempt to sneak up from behind.<br /><br />I don't think we're really disagreeing on anything substantial here, just a slight difference in where the lines are drawn.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-5980097516498512132012-07-04T15:09:34.878+01:002012-07-04T15:09:34.878+01:00But, to return to the point, if the problem is tha...But, to return to the point, if the problem is that we're "also telling girls that they're not allowed to have the same power-trip fantasies that we men had when we were growing up", then, aside from questioning whether we should have been dreaming of being a 'roid-freak (rather than a 'realistic' [or reasonable] fantasy warrior, can't we just ask, 'why does Red Sonja and other fighting women have to present their arses to the artist, or be overtly sexualised, in a way that men's power-trip fantasy images are not.<br /><br />When the standard Conan art is drawn by Tom of Finland, I'll buy the equivalency. I won't say it's healthy, mind.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-18805200614570728972012-07-04T15:03:11.208+01:002012-07-04T15:03:11.208+01:00"If we avoid all images of women that *men* f..."If we avoid all images of women that *men* find sexy or even sexualised then frankly we'd be in danger of not having any images of women at all."<br /><br />Or even of Bugs Bunny is a dress!<br /><br />I agree with you, for the most part, but we do have to remember that this is commercial art produced for an audience of boys and young men. And, from that point of view, I actually have quite a problem with the hyper-muscular mostly naked portrayals of Conan - first, he wears chainmail in most of the stories, which saves his life, or at least some clothes; second, that kind of physique is near impossible to develop and maintain without chemical assistance, and definately impossible to maintain without the gym being a central part of your life. Hell, I played rugby to a pretty good level, and while there were gym nuts, fitness freaks, and guys who had natural Herculean strength, none of them looked like that.<br /><br />As an example of what has changed in our expectations of the male body, watch Death Race 2000 (1975). Sylvester Stallone and David Carradine have a near naked wrestling match. Two action stars. And they look like normal, fit, men. In a film made in the past ten years, near every male character has muscle and definition that takes serious work. I don't think that's healthy, and I like lifting weights!<br /><br />But that's an aside, apologies for the derailment.Andy Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06683770320671028815noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-68787098892121809752012-07-04T14:28:51.993+01:002012-07-04T14:28:51.993+01:00I think you came to the hobby a bit later, though,...I think you came to the hobby a bit later, though, didn't you? A lot of the very simple wish-fulfilment campaigns burnt out quickly. But many of them were pretty appalling while they lasted.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-47141782703735458592012-07-04T14:26:53.784+01:002012-07-04T14:26:53.784+01:00The danger I think is that we have grown so used t...The danger I think is that we have grown so used to condemning such images because of what they say to men that we can forget that they can (sometimes) say something different to women. In this particular case, my wife (and I, to be honest) saw a strong action heroine covered in blood in a dynamic pose. Likewise another female friend thought she looked like a fun character to play.<br /><br />If we avoid all images of women that *men* find sexy or even sexualised then frankly we'd be in danger of not having any images of women at all.Nagorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10805769538648631984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6186411787977962731.post-80296955683747171352012-07-04T10:28:52.363+01:002012-07-04T10:28:52.363+01:00Very interesting reading, not sure I agree with so...Very interesting reading, not sure I agree with some of your generalisations, but then that is hardly unexpected. I remember as young lads we all enjoyed the scantily clad women in our fantasy art, but it was very much a sideshow to the adventure game. Mind, I do recall a character I had in WHFRP who was betrayed by his lady love, I took that personal in my mid teens, and I think it probably was on the part of the game master! :DAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05646247954542936623noreply@blogger.com